so-- >> that is for sure. >> something else. after all the trauma, these three are, by the look of it, fine. it is because, they said, they had a wonderful mother, pam zimmerman. >> you have all done pretty well so far. what what you think about where you are in life and what you have accomplished? >> i think she would be incredibly proud of how well we have handled everything. and how it hasn't, like, derailed us. >> you think about what-- how she would want you to live and how she would want you to keep going. so that is just what i have been trying to do. that's all for this edition of dateline. i am andrea canning, the key for watching. for watching.

it was a really busy week so let's get to some of the conversations you might have missed. >> i want to call this session therapy with hillary, if i may, because she is now going to-- she needs another role, therapist, i know a lot of people answer ask this question, so i want to ask for our viewers about, not just abortion, which i will get to in a moment, and women's right, but about former president, donald trump, who is in criminal court in new york city for this hush money thing. meanwhile, the documents case is delayed. meanwhile, georgia, what is going on here? everything seems to be delayed and moving down the road, and there are even those who argue that this manhattan case, it is not as big, it is not serious and he might get off anyway, or not, and how do people manage their-- especially people who really love this democracy, who take it seriously? take the words that you just said on hours show very seriously that you can't just sit back and let democracy come

to you. but this is every day something we almost work on together. what you say to people whose ask you about the former president, these trials and these delays, and the fear that they feel about the upcoming election? >> well, mika, i am happy to go to therapy with you anytime, because clearly the pressure and the stress on our system, our country, our constitution, our future is so intense, for those of us who understand what is at stake and i don't mean that in a derogatory way to others, but if you have been in this world, as you and i have, and you have studied it and watched it, it is a very difficult time right now. you know, justice delayed is justice denied, and the people in our country it looks, as though, will most likely go to vote without knowing the outcome of these other very serious trials and one that is

going on now, for new york is really about election interference, and really about trying to prevent the people from our country from having relevant information about how they could have voted in 2016 or whether they would have voted. i think the defendant, the former president knew exactly what he was doing, when he went to such great lengths to try to squash, barry, kill stories, payoff people, because he understood the electoral significance of them. so, i think that this is not though about the past, because the other cases are about election interference and he has practically promised us, if you listen to him at his rallies, you read his interview with time magazine, the way the election turns out, he is going to do something again to try and prevent the lawful winner from taking office.

i was secretary of state, traveling around the world on behalf of our country, trying to persuade will leaders to believe in democracy and the peaceful transfer of power, to accept election results after appropriate challenges were made and trump had all of the time in the world to make those challenges and he was shutdown, by courts, he was denied by republican, as well as democratic election officials, because there was no evidence. this is all about power, how to get it, how to keep it, how not to give it up. that is so opposite of everything we believe or should be leave in our country, about how we are a nation of laws, not of men and they are men who try to put themselves above the law, try to hang onto power. the other point i would quickly make is that the supreme court is doing our country a grave disservice in not deciding the

case about immunity. this is-- i have read the excellent decision, by the court of appeals, and the justice-- the judges there. i think they covered every possible argument and what we heard, when this case was tried before the supreme court, to my ear, at least, were efforts to try and to find loopholes, to try and create an opportunity for trump to have attempted to overturn an election, to have carried out hundreds and hundreds of pages of very highly classified material for his own amusement, interest, trading, we don't know what. these are very serious charges against any american, but someone who is both been a president and wants to be a president again, that should cause any voter to think, not twice, but many, many times over about whether we should entrust our country to him.

>> madam secretary, therapy session, obviously officially now. >> wait, i need more. >> oh, do you need more? you need more? okay, well we will tell you at the end of everything that everything is going to be okay if americans do their job. madam secretary, you know yesterday we interviewed ed sorkin, who talked to one of the founders, well, of silicon valley revolution in the late 80s, early 90s, who said, as much as we are talking about ai, we are not talking about it enough. unfortunately we talked about donald trump so much in the media that it is just -- it is just hard to do it. it just really gets nauseating after a while. at the same time, if you are-- for some americans they are not focusing in enough on a president, who said he would be a dictator on day one, that he

would terminate the constitution, that he would execute the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, that he would immediately jail reporters who he didn't like, he would immediately find guilty of treason news organizations that didn't talk the way he wanted them to talk or run the way he wanted them to run. we could go down the list. he said he would fire u.s. attorneys were immediately jail his political opponents, go on and on. and i find myself thinking back and people say i'm being too dramatic. i don't think i. i think back to the richard cohen column probably 2007, 2008, where he talked about this scene around a lake in germany, and 1937, and how peaceful, how beautiful it was and everybody was going about their business, 1937, kids were playing and then he said nobody saw it coming. nobody-- a year later the world had changed, jews were being

rounded up, slaughtered. so, we say we talked about him so much, and yet i don't know that people are really getting their arms around just what a threat a democracy, american democracy, the american experiment is facing right now, help us out. >> you know, joe, i think you make a really important point. i mean, it is one thing to cover the surface and the circus is covered, people can't stop covering the circus, every utterance, every insult, every outrageous action or comment, it gets covered. the context is often missing. what does that really mean? and i think it is imperative, especially for members of the press to understand before people did not take the kind of

threats that we saw in the 1930s as seriously as they should, including american journalist. you know, people are taking at face value that this can be controlled. he may have said some outrageous things, but it will- - the institutions will hold. a determined demagogue, unfortunately supported, by members of his political party, other enablers, people who care more about a future tax cut than the sanctity of the constitution, or falling in line, behind him. they are trying to excuse some of the most outrageous things, that you just recited. and i don't think the press has done enough to basically say okay, the circus is here, you can watch the circus, but let's tell you what that means. let's talk to people who have a real understanding of how dictatorships evolve. let's look at the admirers and what they've already done.

back in 2016, we didn't have interviews with him, we didn't have track record of four years in office. you know, there's a lot of speculation, and i understand that there's a lot of people who wouldn't take necessarily what i said as gospel of what would happen. i get that. but now we know. we have seen him and we heard him. so we need to do a better job of making it absolutely clear that someone who says these things, maybe the he wouldn't jail all of his political opponents. one is one too many. maybe he wouldn't try to force out of business, you know, the members of the press who didn't agree with him. one is one too many. we go down the line. and maybe this would be our last election, because someone who will not accept the validity of an election is someone who doesn't believe in elections. he believes in his own power, his own rights to power, and his demand that he be installed, regardless of whether he gets the votes or not. we have lots more to get to

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i have always, personally and on this program, had great faith in the supreme court to be the leveling wind. unfortunately, as you said, you read the dc circuit opinion on presidential immunity, i must say, i was shocked that the roberts court didn't just a permit. send it down, they are dragging their feet and it certainly looks political. so, do we depend on them if they can't even handle a simple , basic issue on immunity? i don't think so. i want to-- and tim scott, let's not get started about tim scott and other republicans who are also now saying they want to accept the results of the election. i want to get to another difficult issue. maybe this is therapy after all.

>> it is. >> i just want everybody that is watching, because everybody gets heated about israel and gaza, what i am going to talk to you about what happened before october 7th. i want to talk about radicalism on college campuses. sort of radicalism that has mainstream students getting propaganda, whether it is from their professors or whether it is from communist chinese government through tiktok, calling the president of the united states genocide joe, calling you and president clinton were criminals. actually stopping the naming of a building after madeleine albright, because they claim, professors claim, some of the same professors that took part in the most radical elements of the protest over the past couple of weeks, called madeleine albright award winner, and we are still waiting

for the building for foreign service to be renamed after madeleine albright. the first secretary of state that is a woman. made history, just like you made history, but you have got mainstream college students, i know, because i have talked to a lot of college students over the past year or two. they have this radicalized view of the middle east, a radicalized view of american public servants, like yourself, madeleine albright, president clinton, joe biden. i can name republican presidents as well. and there is this radicalization, and i just want to know, first of all, it is distressing. what do we do about it? so, public servants are inch taught that american leaders are were criminals and that joe

biden is not genocide joe, quite the opposite emma and secondly, the stupidity of the slogans that ignore all of the history, since 1948, about what the united states has tried to do about what you try to do, but what president clinton tried to do in bringing a two state solution about. i remember when you talked about a two state solution and it was considered radical. they couldn't believe, oh my god, ellery clinton is actually talking about a two state solution. she hates israel. and now that has been flipped to you are a war criminal and albright is a war criminal. bill clinton is a war criminal, joe biden, it is disgusting. and i want you to tell us what needs to be done, what you would hope would be done, one, number two, how do we get madeleine albright's building? because she has been slandered to death, she has been

slandered and death, a public servant who escaped the holocaust, gave her entire life to the united states of america and has been slandered in death by extremists, i'm sorry, funded by qatar, i'm sorry, and number three i told you we were moving past a therapy session, maybe this will get on you to, or if the communist chinese will allow it to get on youtube, please, tell any students watching, what president clinton and you put together in 2000 and the oslo accords. you gave the palestinians a pathway to peace and they were scared to take it, because they knew they would be slaughtered by hamas. >> well, i don't know where to start joe. go ahead. >> i want to make a couple of

quick points, because you raised things that, you know, needs to be vented about, first of all, i have had many conversations, as you have had, with a lot of young people over the last many months now, and you are right. they don't know very much at all about the history of the middle east, or frankly about history in many areas of the world, including in our own country, but with respect to the middle east, they don't know that, under the, bringing together of the israelis and the palestinians by my husband the then israeli prime minister , the head of the palestinian liberation organization and palestinian authority, yasser arafat, an offer was made to the palestinians for a state on a 96% of the existing territory occupied by the palestinians for israel to be given to reach

100% of the amount of territory that was hoped for. and this offer was made, and if yasser arafat had accepted it, there would have been a palestinian state now for about 24 years. it is one of the great tragedies of history, that he was unable to say yes. you know, my husband has a book coming out later this year, joe, in which he talks about how yasser arafat kept saying he intended to agree, he wanted to agree, but he was, as you are rightly pointing out, pretty sure he would be killed, because, so that was killed by extremists when he made peace with israel, our dear, dear friend. rabin was killed by a radical israeli when he was pursuing the two state solution. so, this is a very important piece of history to understand. if you are going to take any kind of position with respect

to what is going on right now. and there is much more that we could go into, as you say, since 1948, but you could literally go back thousands of years. the important point i want to emphasize though, is, propaganda is not education. propaganda on whether it is tiktok or in the classroom, is actually the opposite of education. anybody who is teaching in a university, or anybody who is putting content on social media should be held responsible for what they include and what they exclude and so much of what we see, particularly on tiktok about what is going on in the middle east is woefully false, but it is also incredibly slanted, pro-hamas, anti-israel , and it is, you know, not any place, where anyone should go to get information about complex matters, like what is going on there. so, we have to do a much better

job in trying to, number one, teach history at all levels, that is why i love stuffs. but it is also important that we recognize the propaganda value of social media. the people are on social media often times two press an agenda, an ideological or religious, a financial, a political, a partisan agenda. so, of course you don't get the facts. of course you don't get any kind of context. and we have to do a better job ourselves, and we certainly have to do a better job with young people in trying to help them understand how to filter and interpret the information they are giving, and i think we also need to do a better job in our classrooms, particularly at the college and university level, not to fall into easy absolutes. you are either this or you are that, you are four or against.

life is complicated. so i agree we have got to do something to stand against a lot of these false narratives and, with respect to my dear friend, madeleine albright, she deserves to have anything and everything made for her. she lived the 20th century, she fled first from the and then after returning to what was czechoslovakia she had to flee the soviet communists. she exemplifies what freedom means. she demonstrates what a great refuge america has been for people seeking freedom, and heaven forbid if we don't protect this democracy, this constitution, our values, our fusion against false narratives , against demagogic one of the authoritarian leaders, shame on us, but let's not forget people who helped us get to where we are and where i hope we will

always, here in this country and madeleine albright was certainly one of those, who i admire greatly. >> well said. in our remaining moments, secretary clinton, you laid out the section in our conversation, you have a massive following among democrats, among swing voters, among progressives. what would you say to those who are feeling a little disillusioned right now, you might think joe biden is too old, we need new leadership, i'm going to look at rfk junior, who is pulling, in this moment anyway, in the double digits, who are upset about what is going in gaza and they don't like the way that joe biden has handled the relationship with israel. what would be your message to those skeptical or disillusioned voters would you say i'm going to look somewhere else or stay at home. >> please look at the whole picture, and also think about yourself, think about the future you want, what kind of country you want to live in, whether you value freedom or do you want to give it up to people who want to change the way that america has tried to

work in the values we have tried to aspire to and fulfill. and when people ask me about, you know, the biden-trump race, you know, my answer is very clear, if two old candidates, one is, yes, old and effective, has passed legislation that i think is going to put america on such a strong footing for the future, is compassionate, cares about people, tries hard to make the right decision, and they are complicated the other is old and dangerous. i mean, why is that a hard choice for people? i think everyone of us has an obligation as a citizen to try and figure out, waking up the morning after the election, do i want to throw my vote away? do i want to not vote and let somebody who doesn't agree with me or care about me, essentially fill that vacuum that i left?

or do i want to feel like, okay, maybe i am not asked eric about the outcome but i am safe. coming up, a tale of two trials. the judge in trump's new york hush money trial held him in contempt this week, while the judge of the florida documents case gave him a big win. we will explain, right after the break. i don't have a problem with my memory." memory loss is, is not something that occurs overnight. i started noticing subtle lapses in memory. i want people to know that prevagen has worked for me. it's helped my memory. it's helped my cognitive qualities. give it a try. i want it to help you just like it has helped me. prevagen. at stores everywhere without a prescription. ♪♪ some people just know that the best rate for you is a rate based on you, with allstate. because there's a right way to. stop! and the speed limit definitely isn't. 700 million mph.

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special counsel, jack smith, and his team, have argued trump's lawyers have had ample time to prepare for a trial and joe, this is one of those situations, where a lot of legal experts have been saying that this is the most clear-cut case. maybe even one of the most serious cases, and yet this is the judge that was picked, and this is the way things go. >> welcome to the american judicial system. you know, it is very interesting, we will go to you, and then please go to our experts, but early on i had judges and lawyers always tell me, you know what? you will win, most of the time things go the way they are supposed to go. but, you know what? 20% of the time you will win cases that you have no rights to win and 20% of the time a

jury will come back and be assured that you will lose 20% of cases, you know, that you should have never lost. and there is just-- there's-- there's checks and balances, but in this case, in this case it is exposed to the world that, right now we are trying what many experts consider to be the weakest case, and what many people, like myself, and i have said this before, we are in a case that i don't think, for a variety of reasons, should have ever been brought. but we are there, and they are trying it. then you have the case that most legal experts say, it is like, it is like the strongest case. i mean, this guy stole nuclear secrets. this guy stole war plans, a government building on secret war plans of what would we do in invading iran, this guy sold

sensitive secrets that other countries would pay tens of millions of dollars for, probably even more, stole them, lied to the fbi, lied to the justice department, had his lawyers like to the fbi, lied to the justice department, and then tried to get, according to testimony, his i.d. director to destroy the cameras, destroy the evidence, and when he wanted to do it then, allegedly, we are hearing he tried to flood the rooms, talk to the maintenance guy, who also said, no, i'm not going to do that. so, you have, you have the most important case of all of the cases brought against trump and it is with a judge who is going to make sure it never sees the light of day. i mean, it is just -- ain't that america for you and me? >> yeah. >> it is uneven, but again, i

have faith in the judicial system. at the end of the day, everything does balance out, so i'm not here, like, you know, like-- you know, trashing the american judicial system. sometimes stuff just happens, and here, we have just a great irony, we are living through a case that a lot of people don't think should have ever been brought and we are never going to hear a case that is actually central to donald trump's crimes, which i perceive to be his greatest crimes, and he is burying it. >> and your case goes up another level of phenomenon we have had to live with the last 10 years, which is that donald trump always gets away with it. and that is what so many democrats and other americans have been sing for such a long time, including yesterday. this, in some ways, not a surprise. donald trump, one person said to me yesterday, once the judge was assigned to it, she, of course, was his appointee, and she has done everything she can

every step of the way to slow this thing down, to bring it to a halt. there were reporters assigned to that case posting on twitter , ex, in recent days, you know, this trial is supposed to start in two weeks and there's obviously no sign it is going to. and she didn't just postpone it, she did so indefinitely. and let's remember, if donald trump were to win the election this november, he controlled the justice department, federal case, he could instruct his attorney general to make this one go away, so maybe this will never ever see the light of day. >> right. >> so, lisa rubin, let's get urinalysis here, just what we heard from this judge yesterday about this indefinite delay. you have any sense, is it even worth taking a haphazard guess as to when this trial will begin? is there any chance we have got for the election and lastly, is there any recourse for jack smith? >> let's start with can this case be tried before the election? i think that ship has long since sailed. yesterday was no surprise.

i can't underscore how little of a surprise it was. it was more surprising that stormy daniels went on the stand and said that she had sex with donald trump that eileen cannon postponed her trial date. she has a number of motions that have even yet to be scheduled that are required under the classified information procedures act. she has a number of pending motions that have been fully briefed for months now on which she has made no decision. i wouldn't venture a guess as to when this case would be ready for trial and i believe that is by design. i continue to be disappointed by eileen cannon, and her execution of the role of rural justice here. >> so, just -- to make a point here that is sort of in the background, joe, ms. rubin says i continue to be disappointed in this judge. will you look at some of these decisions, they seem basic. what you don't see here on this broadcast is conspiracy theories. oh, that's trump is pulling the strings, based on no facts. you don't see here hair on fire. this is the way it went.

and because of, you pointed out, the justice system, it is not perfect. but this is the judge we have got. >> this is the judge we have got, and guess what? nobody is alleging that the clerk of courts in the southern district did anything wrong. you know, you draw a judge, and that is the judge that comes up, and her number came up, and, you know, sometimes you see in stories, oh, you have got the hanging judge, oh-- it is what happens, unless somebody has information that the southern district, you know, clerk court wanted to risk their career and their freedom, by rigging this process, which they-- i'm sure they did not. this is the judge we got. this is the judge we get. no. no. that did not happen. saying this just happened sometimes, this judge-- i do want to say, willie, though, to follow up on what jonathan said,

if you are saying jonathan is been too political when he is talking about all of the mistakes she has made, that is not from a centerleft or left- wing or a right-wing point of view. you look at what the 11th circuit said, the most conservative circuit in america. they excoriated her from a ruling, they excoriated her on an appeal. just absolutely humiliating her. it is one of the reasons why i thought she would be a bit more careful, a bit more circumspect , play more down the center, play more by the rules than she has, but she has not. i mean, you look at what she is talking about regarding jury instructions. it is crazy, it is crazy, a 12- year-old went with her mother to take a kid to court day as a lawyer or something, would have come up with a better ruling

than she has come up with. it is bizarre and i am sure that if that is appealed, the 11th circuit will excoriate her again. up next, how fealty to donald trump has reshaped the republican party. we will talk about and applebaum about the latest piece in the atlantic rsv is out there. for those 60 years and older protect against rsv with arexvy. arexvy is a vaccine used to prevent lower respiratory disease from rsv in people 60 years and older. arexvy does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients. those with weakened immune systems may have a lower response to the vaccine. the most common side effects are injection site pain, fatigue, muscle pain, headache, and joint pain. i chose arexvy. rsv? make it arexvy.

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chance, we haven't had a chance to talk to you, since the time interview, and in the time interview, again, just again it reads like it is straight out of twilight and your warnings about what happened in poland, what happened in hungary, what is happening in putin's russia, but in that time magazine article of course, donald trump is talking about firing u.s. attorneys that do not prosecute, arrest and prosecute his political enemies, enemies of the press, enemies in the judicial system and donald trump talking about states monitoring that it is okay for states to monitor women's pregnancies. it can go down the list, but as you read that, where you-- were u.s. price that he would admit what he was going to do, or you suspect that he is just trying to let americans know, if you

elect me, we are moving beyond democracy and we are going to look more like hungary than medicine's america. >> so, this also connect to the topic of my atlantic cover story. so, for some years now, there has been a part of the american right, helped by some other foreign actors, who have been pushing the idea that autocracy is stable and safe and democracy is chaotic and destructive and degenerate, and that therefore, we need a different kind of political system in america or we need a different kind-- different kinds of people running it, and what trump is doing is playing into an existing sentiment, one that has been built up and created for many years. so, the idea that his presidency would be stabled, more prop prosperous, is part of a broader argument about the kino decline of democracy and the rise of autocracy.

>> and when did that, for you, looking back, when did that start? when did that begin? you say it has been happening in the republican party, when did the party? my former party start moving that direction? >> i think you know, different things happen at different times . it became clear to me, during the 2016 campaign that something odd was happening, even for example, trump during that campaign using and repeating russian invented conspiracy theories. there was one about obama creating isis and hillary starting world war iii and, you know, attempting to show that democrat-- the democratic party in this case, was chaotic and destructive about only i can help you and only i can save you it was autocratic language to appeal to people. and i think he sensed it and saw it coming.

>> let me read from your extremely powerful case in the cover story of the atlantic. the new authoritarians also have a different attitude toward reality. they lie constantly, blatantly, obviously. but they don't bother to offer counterarguments when their lies are exposed. after russian controlled forces shutdown malaysia airlines flight mh17 over ukraine in 2014, the russian government reacted, not only with a denial, but with multiple stories, plausible and implausible: it blamed the ukrainian army, and the cia, and a nefarious plot in which dead people were placed in a plane in order to vacate crash, and discredit russia. this tactic, the so-called firehose of falsehoods, ultimately produces not outrage but nihilism. fear, cynicism, nihilism, and apathy, coupled with disgust and disdain for democracy, this is the formula that modern

autocrats, some variations, sell to their citizens and foreigners, all with the aim of destroying what they call american hegemony. and joe actually, i think that's donald trump will drag out, picking his vp, because he has these people stepping up and jumping into his lies and holding onto them tight and developing a little system for him. among many others. and the question is, as and lays out how this happens, how does america hold back from self-destructing. >> anne, you are just so perfect to talk about this, because you understand poland, what has been happening in poland over the last several years, you actually have the justice party completely controlled, so many levers of power there going into the election. they thought they were going to win the election.

others thought they were going to win the election, because they did control those levers. and-- but they lost. don tusk ended up winning, and i am just curious, what lessons can america learn from that, and how do you combat this firehose of falsehoods? right? i remember reading in the new yorker, back in the beginning of donald trump's presidency, the diaries of a man, who saw the rise of hitler, and one of the things he talked about was just the firehose of falsehoods , just how confounding it was to keep up with what the truth was, what the truth wasn't, and eventually people just gave up. had we not give up trying to discern what the truth is, and how do we overcome this? >> it is interesting that you talk about poland, that we did have a similar kind of government repeatedly that

sought to manipulate the media, but also sought to take control of all of the institutions of the state. so much so that nobody really believed they could be them in an election. we are not in that position here in the u.s. we have that opposite position, we don't have that government yet. but we could. the solution in the end was to look for other ways of contacting people. so, there was an enormous grassroots campaign with what was then the opposition party sought to reach people where they were, to visit small towns, big cities, rural areas, in huge numbers. partly as a way of showing, you know, showing up in real life, to contradict the fake messages. i mean, that is not as easy to do in the united states. we are a much bigger country, and i don't think joe biden can visit every major area in the next six months, but he can

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starting with you, madam secretary, what do we need to know in our history, as women in the united states fighting for our rights? as we look now ahead, toward a new fight for our rights, of regaining our rights, the right to be able to make decisions about our body, our reproductive freedom, women, as we all know, as you know, have been told to bleed out in parking lots, have been told to carry unviable fetuses to term, to then watch their baby die, creating trauma in the family and possibly sterilizing new mothers. we have got young rape victims that have been forced and will be forced to carry babies to

term. this is the new reality we are living in. my question to you is what is the history that we can draw on women who have fought for our rights before to get ready for the fight ahead? >> is a great question and i will quote that line, from the finale, and thumb. progress is possible, not guaranteed. every generation has to keep alert and diligent. not every generation necessarily has to fight, but this one does, and we all do, in order to take back our rights and to protect our rights. unfortunately, it is very tragic, but not-- you know, unexpected. there are people who want to turn the clock back on women. and it is not just in this country, it is happening in other places as well. and basically they want more control over women, more control over the choices women make, the lives that women lead, the opportunities we pursue, and therefore, any woman

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good morning, and welcome back to morning joe weekend. it is 7:00 a.m., this saturday

morning, and we have a lot more to cover. take a look. >> from our key witness from the prosecution will be michael cohen, and with the expectation that he appears on monday, he could be the culmination of the case that they lay out. just a few days ago they had suggested that they have about two weeks left of witnesses to bring forward, and the expectation is that michael cohen could be the last one. he could round out, potentially next week with the prosecution's witnesses. at that point in time, the defense would then be able to call their own witnesses to the stand and of course, we are then looking at the end of this trial. after several weeks your in which stormy daniels, hope hicks, and now soon to be michael cohen. >> we have heard from so many different witnesses. in terms of your specialization in financial fraud, i would like to ask you, we've seen a lot this week, we've heard a lot this week and a lot of it was very salacious and specific.

in terms of what the former president is accused of, the counts against him, did the prosecution conduct itself in a manner that was effective and complete? >> yeah. it is an excellent question, and i understand that the central component of the charges here, concerns falsification of the records, but i think they did what they needed to do this week and i know there's a debate about whether they should have called stormy daniels and whether it went on too long. but here's the problem with the critics, candidly. donald trump has denied this story for years, that stormy daniels had sex. that is the start of the story. donald trump's lawyer then repeated that denial in his opening statement. so, if you are the prosecutors and jurors the prosecutors of justice established that a central component of donald trump's defense is a lie, and the lead counsel passed on to the light to the opening statement. and the only thing stormy daniels really needed to put into evidence is there's all of this cross-examination or

nitpicking. the jurors only need to believe that she had sex with donald trump. that's it. they don't need to care whether she changed her story or not, and all of the detail, you know, the judge seems to have gotten a little frustrated-- excuse me? >> the detail helps provide that proof doesn't it? >> that is exactly what i was going to say. when you are talking about a story where only two people are in the room and one of the people is apparently lying about what happened, that of course the other person has to provide as much detail as possible, because that is how we established their credit ability. in real life that is how we decide if we believe someone's story, the details. so, i think the critics are sort of misguided on this front. i think the prosecutors really had no choice after todd blanche denied that this encounter happened and it happened in his opening statement. >> so, charles, give us your assessment on what is going to happen today. on the ground front, certainly a key figure in trump's west wing, and how prosecutors will

use that to set up, in many ways it will be the main event. >> everything, since we heard from david pecker has been dots. and they will use the dots to link the prosecution. they have given you a piece s framework, if you will, to fill in what david pecker began when he filled in first as witness. and every piece of information that each person has offered his painting a larger picture. the one thing that the prosecution has not done yet successfully is actually tie donald trump into everything that has happened. it has happened more and more and more come out but michael cohen is the linchpin, he is the witness that is going to provide the information that actually connects the dots and puts donald trump at the center of this case. and i think that is why it is going to take so long, because they are going to take each of the accounts that the witnesses gave and they are going to get corroborating testimony from michael cohen to actually tie donald trump in, which is what

they have to do. >> charles, you know, sometimes from the outside, when you are not in that courtroom, things-- it can get a little complicated. and then we had, you know, stormy daniels's testimony that could be seen as a distraction. and it is quite salacious. i am wondering if you think that, as an attorney, that the jury may see it that way? or if what they are seeing is kind of a straight through line. how tightly-- how tight is this story that the prosecution is muting? >> i think the jury is absolutely not seeing this as a straight line. i think it is the job of the prosecution to make it as clear and straightforward as possible. but when i see say they are not seeing it as a straight line, understand that is by design from the defense in many respects, part of why it has gotten so salacious is because the defense, in this case, does not have strong facts, and they know that, and because they don't have strong facts to work with, the alternative strategy

is, we will just throw everything at the wall and see what sticks. if we can confuse the street, perhaps if we get one juror who says i don't know if this makes sense to me and i don't know if i want to buy it, and so i will not make it. >> so, there is an attempt to confuse the jury. a lot more to get to this hour. morning joe continues after a short break. short break. that's caaaaaaaaash. cashback like a pro with chase freedom unlimited. how do you cashback?

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donald trump going on the offensive, with robert f kennedy junior in a four minute video posted to truths social last night. trump ripped the independent presidential candidate, accusing him of lying about being anti-vaccine. he is not enough of an anti- boxer, according to donald trump. this comes as recent polls show kennedy taking a sizable bite away from both trump and president biden in several battleground states. here is some of that new video from trump. >> so, republicans, get it out of your mind that you are going

to vote for this guy, because he is conservative. he is not. and for those of you want to vote because you think he is an anti-boxer he is not really an anti-boxer, that is only his political moment. i would even take biden over junior, because our country would last about a year or two longer than it would with junior, it would collapse almost immediately, and his family, radical left, a crazy left, a bunch of lunatics, which take over and our country will die very quickly, so, rfk's views, vaccines are fake, as is everything about his candidacy. he's not a republican, so don't think you will vote for him and feel good. >> he has never been clear at hiding his beer and now we see out in the open, he is very worried about robert f kennedy junior. saying he is not anti-vaccine off, don't believe what he is saying, i'm the real anti-boxer here. by the way, we should point out that donald trump obscured administration led operation

warp speed, which is a medical miracle, thank god, to get the vaccine into the arms of people and save lives. what you see in that video? >> yeah, remember when trump still talked about developing the vaccine at rallies, and he got food and he finally figured out that this is a place the cult was not going to go with him on how quickly he claimed he developed the vaccine during the pandemic? yeah, he is worried, he is worried. i thought the part of the clip that was astounding to me biden is better than bobby junior. he actually said biden is better. that is interesting that he would do that. i think that was a momentary fail in his normal way of communicating. i think both biden and trump are worried about rfk. now, i think as this goes on, and bobby kennedy as more and more exposed for some of the crazy stuff you said for his, frankly not being upfront about

some of his issues in his life, i think he will say, but people need to remember this is an election, where nobody likes-- well, most people don't like their choices. and that is just it is not an abnormal thing. people-- there's a lot of people, by the time election rolls around and presidential's they will say to you i have heard it 1000 times i don't like any of the candidates. so having a third-party name out here to recognize as a danger to both of these guys. so we don't really know yet who rfk junior hurts more. polls suggest he is drying from both. early on you see more biden these days, but still an issue for both. but we see that trump has gone after him in that video. i am just amazed he didn't mention the brain warm. the biden campaign has also done the same pointing out some of rfk junior's other inflammatory statements. weigh in on that and what you

see is the biden campaign's current strategy against trump, where they are taking this moment here. what obama did to romney in 2012. saturating the airwaves with ads, trying to find this race as early as it can, a moment with donald trump. >> yeah. that is right. first on rfk junior, i just don't-- that was really weird, i think. i thought, of trump. first of all, it is a weird line of attack to try to convince people that rfk junior is not really an anti-boxer. i mean, he is the anti-boxer. more anti-vax then certainly anybody else anywhere near this race. and so that just doesn't-- that rings hollow. and i wonder if they have-- of the trump campaign think that has some soundings out there in some of the swing stakes than maybe he is hurting trump on too much more than he is hurting biden and-- because

that had a whiff of panic about it. it was really very strange. on the biden strategy. i mean yeah, they have got this sort of open field right now. so, the president is running around and his surrogates are running around, trying to talk about the administration's accomplishments, trying to talk about the danger of donald trump. and so, i think that is really, the thing for them to be doing. of course, there are issues. there are lots of things that president biden has to be worried about right now, including the israel, palestine and the war in gaza and the democratic coalition over that. but i think he is doing what he needs to do. i do have a side question about- - for linear, which is what is

the deal with your celtics? >> oh man. >> i will do that-- i will do that real quick. thanks, chief for bringing that up. >> yeah. >> this is who they are. they are so inconsistent. they can't handle prosperity. they don't have a killer instinct. they lost the game two at home. they are under 500 at home in the playoffs the last couple of years. it is infuriating. i still think they will get through this series, but they are making it harder on themselves is the bottom line. >> oh my lord. in a political week where things that happened this week, from warrants and brains to spankings, why don't we just go to rfk junior's position on abortion. so, in an interview this week, rfk junior said he does not support the government putting limitations on abortion. even with full-term pregnancy. >> you it's a completely-- it

is up to-- >> i believe we should leave it to the woman. we shouldn't have men involved. >> even if it is full-term? >> even if it is full-term. >> okay. i think that is where-- that is what i wanted to clarify. >> yeah. i would like a little clarification on that too. the policy position goes further than even most democrats and seemed to surprise his vice presidential pick, nicole shanahan, who-- when she appeared on the actual same podcast. >> i spoke to bobby about this, and at the end of the day, he says yes, this is a woman's joyce, period, and i said even up till birth? and yes was his answer. >> no. and that is not bobby's position as i understand it. my understanding with bobby's position is that, you know, every abortion is a tragedy. >> yes, he said that. >> is a loss of life. my understanding is that he absolutely believes in limits

on abortion, and we have talked about this. i do not think-- i don't know where-- >> will he just he-- >> wow. that is a significant change in position for rfk junior in august of last year. he told nbc news he would sign an national abortion ban after the first three months of pregnancy, his campaign later walked back his statement on legislation, banning abortion. we have lots more to get to this hour. morning joe weekend continues after a short break. early retirements possible, and startups start up. because it's smart, dependable, and steady. all words you want from your bank. for nearly 160 years, pnc bank has been brilliantly boring so you can be happily fulfilled... which is pretty un-boring if you think about it.

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welcome back to morning joe we can. let's jump back into one of this week's conversations we thought you shouldn't miss. >> claire mccaskill, this to me seems like one of three major issues in this election that could put people over the edge, in terms of their decision on

who they vote for. what did rfk just do for himself there? >> well, you should how unserious he is as a candidate. you know, mika, there are candidates all across the area right now running for state representative and running for county council that are thinking about this issue and searching themselves about what they believe the role of government should be. in reproductive healthcare. and this is not an easy issue for many people. because so many people feel so strongly about it. but it is not one where anybody with their right mind would be changing their position like you change your shirt. and it appears to me that bobby kennedy is searching for quote unquote the right answer. i mean, this is-- these are the kind of mistakes that a candidate for the lowest office in the country might make, but somebody who is putting themselves out there that they

are in a position to lead, for him to say one month i am for an abortion ban, a natural abortion ban, and then the next month say, hey, yeah, i think a full-term abortion is fine, i don't think the state should have anything to say about that. it just shows that he is not a serious candidate. and frankly, i don't know what has motivated him to do this, but he is not in a position to hold the highest office in this country. period, end of discussion. >> even worse, linear, robert f kennedy is the kind of guy who takes off his shoes and socks next to you in an airplane, as evidenced by his position. >> oh my, oh my. there is no need. there's no need for that. >> no. >> so, john, let's talk, you mentioned a minute ago, but how seriously the biden campaign is taking robert f kennedy junior. as you say, it is hard to find out who he is pulling from, obviously donald trump is worried about bobby kennedy junior here in the kind of

voter he might take from donald trump, but how is the biden campaign assessing the threat, because we've seen in polls just this week he is pulling pretty high into the double digits, 14%, 18% in some of these swing states. >> first of all, i'm glad we have issues on policy here. although, we should note-- >> heck yeah. >> not everybody has socks on all the time. i won't name names. >> okay. >> but yes, on this one, on this one here there is a concern. the biden campaign has really ramped up their operations for third-party candidates. i mean, they take it seriously, jill stein, barely picking up in the polls, but it is a point here and point there, and even they matter, but they're mostly focused on robert f kennedy junior, there's just a sense that low information voters see the kennedy last name and they go while, of course his father, his uncle, that is what i am for and he may lose some votes there, particularly in

communities right there. has struggled some. so they are really doing their best to spend a lot of money, making sure voters know what he really stands. but i think there's a growing sense, willie, in wilmington that rfk junior really poses more of a threat to trump. that it pulls from both, to be sure, but maybe more of an issue from donald trump and that is why we are seeing is videos of attacks from their presumptive republican nominee. lots more to get you this hour. morning joe weekend continues after a short break. k. it's tough to breathe and tough to keep wondering if this is as good as it gets. but trelegy has shown me that there's still beauty and breath to be had. because with three medicines in one inhaler, trelegy keeps my airways open and prevents future flare-ups. and with one dose a day, trelegy improves lung function so i can breathe more freely all day and night.

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donald trump says jewish americans who vote for president, joe biden, should be quote, ashamed of themselves. he made the comments on three cases as he has done a number of times with israel and hamas breaking out, take a look. >> if you are a jewish person, just don't vote for biden, who doesn't know where he is, who couldn't put two sentences together, doesn't know what he's doing, frankly, but don't vote for biden, because you are really hurting your country. no, he has totally gone on the other side now, he has dropped israel. if you are jewish and you vote for him, i say shame on you. >> what biden is doing with respect to his disgraceful. if any jewish person voted for joe biden this year, they should be ashamed of

themselves. >> cricket joe hates jewish people and israel. and if jewish people we have got to vote for joe biden they have to have their head examined. >> all right, joining us now, the moderator of meet the press, kristen welker. kristin, great to have you on the show. a lot to talk about, let's start with this. joe biden has been pretty clear about his concerns over israel's response to october 7th and concerns about moving in on raw for and obviously the civilian lives at stake here and those that have been lost. it is a very complicated situation. now you have donald trump chiming in the way he has and even now democrats, some are concerned or, you know, raising real pushback to his wanting to pull back on weapons to israel, aid to israel. republicans are speaking out as well. it is quite a task for the

president to manage moving forward, especially with politicians from both sides of the aisle chiming in. >> mika, it is so great to be with you, and you underscore just how fraught this situation is. those comments from former president trump, a lot of people in those comments echoes an old anti-semitic trope. so, we should say that at the outset. in terms of the politics for president biden, this could not be more complicated. you do have republicans, senator lindsey graham, who we will have on meet the press exclusively abandoning one of america's closest allies. they need to have these divisions among democrats. senator bernie sanders, an independent, of course with the democrats who will on sunday actually defending this move

who says look this is an important first step, sanders is actually calling on president biden to go even further, he says the u.s. should be using the full weight of its leverage to try to pressure benjamin netanyahu to yahoo to have a clear plan to protect civilian lives, but there are divisions among democrats over this very issue. not only the protest we've seen on college campuses, but some democrats who are concerned about the fact, what will this mean that president biden is threatening to withhold? now, i just spoke to someone very close to the campaign to president biden, this person tells me, look, a couple of things, one, this aid that president biden is threatening to withhold was not the aid that was just approved by congress. that eight is going to move forward. the second point that this person makes is, look, yes, an acknowledgment that the politics of this are hugely complicated, but they believe ultimately, ultimately, when

you talked to voters who are upset about this issue they say they are very frustrated with the president, but they also plan to vote for him, because he is better than former president trump on this issue if you are upset about the civilian casualties. >> kristin, elise here. >> elise, hi. >> what are you hearing from your sources on the biden and trump campaigns on how they see the war in gaza on how they find a political issue this campaign cycle. >> it is an important question, they say this is not going to be a top voting issue for voters, including young voters. then we top issues will be things like reproductive rights and the economy. so that is where you will see the president, vice president lien into those issues on the campaign trail, even while trying to navigate the very tricky politics of what is happening in the middle east.

republicans acknowledge they think the top voting issues are the economy or issues like the border and yet they see this as a vulnerability, see you can expect them, elise, to capitalize on that vulnerability at every turn. >> i want to talk about another incredible moment on meet the press, senator, tim scott, you asked him, i think it is six times about whether or not he would support the results of the election. i want to show that moment. genus talking about it, take a look. >> senator, will you commit to the election results of 2024, bottom line? >> at the end of the day the 47th president of the united states will be president, donald trump and i am excited to get back to low inflation, low unemployment. >> senator, yes or no? yes or no? will you accept the election results of 2024, no matter who wins? >> that is my statement.

>> just yes or no, will you accept the election results of 2024? >> i look forward to president trump being the 47th president, kristin, you can ask me multiple times. >> senator, just a yes or no answer. >> so, the american people will make the decision. >> but i don't hear you committing-- >> that is clear. >> i am not here you commit to the election results. >> this is why so many americans believe that nbc is a messenger of the democrat party. at the end of the day i said what i said. i know that the american people, their voices will be heard, and i believe that president trump will be our next president. it is that simple. >> and that was the short version. it was so creditworthy, and kristin, great work. but you never-- he never gave an answer. he refused. jean, you are writing about this, i mean, i know there is the stakes going on, and people

are killing dogs, telling people about it, thinking that will give them bang for their buck, but come on, man. are you serious, tim scott? jean? >> yeah, no, i mean, this is-- there is only one answer to that question right? there is only one right answer, and it is of course i will accept the results of the election, no matter, you know, whichever way it goes, and the fact that he just could not say that and would not say that, after six valiant attempt, kristin, and i watched that and i just thought it was-- >> brutal. >> you are like a dog, you would not let it go. >> but he wouldn't say it. and you know, other-- there are some other republicans were playing this same sort of dance and not giving straight answers to that question. kristin, are they just playing to an audience of one? are they-- are these the vice presidential hopefuls, who are playing to donald trump?

or are they playing, do you think, to the larger republican constituency of this mega constituency? and they actually think there is an audience for this? >> well, jean, and i read your power and i think it is fantastic because it hits at the heart of it, yes, i think they are playing to an audience of one, senator tim scott made that clear, not just in that exchange, guys, but when i asked him about abortion, remember, during the primary? he believed the commander-in- chief should support a 15 week federal abortion ban. he walked away from that position, so i very much think that he had comments over the weekend effectively trying to say that there were some real challenges with the 2020 election results, and others whose appearances are playing to an audience of one, as well as to the trump base, and remember the context everyone, this came after that big event

at mar-a-lago, when former president trump was hosting a number of his potential vp picks, it is our reporting that senator tim scott is among those on the short list praise the way that scott has talked about him on this campaign trail of the presidential primary. so i do think his comments were just so extraordinary, because they underscore one thing, which is that for trump loyalty is the most important quality here. we have lots more to get to this hour. morning joe weekends continues after a short break. i felt like disconnecting. i asked my doctor about treating my td, and learned about ingrezza. ♪ ingrezza ♪ ingrezza is clinically proven for reducing td. most people saw results in just two weeks. people taking ingrezza can stay on most mental health meds.

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so i don't have to worry. empower. what's next. it's a beautiful... ...day to fly. wooooo! president biden, condemned to rise in anti-semitism during a speech yesterday at a holocaust remembrance ceremony. the president drew a parallel between the holocaust and october 7th attack by hamas, the october 7th attacks.

which he said were driven by an ancient desire to wipe out the jewish people. he also addressed the protests across college campuses over the war in gaza. >> this ancient hatred of jews didn't start with a holocaust or end with a holocaust or even our victory over world war ii. this hatred continues to lie deep in the hearts of too many people in the world. and requires our continued vigilance and outspokenness now here we are. not 75 years later, but just seven and half months later. people are already forgetting. already forgetting. that hamas unleashed this terror , it was hamas who brutalized israelis. it was hamas who took and

continues to hold hostages. i have not forgotten, nor have you and we will not forget. in america, we respect and protect the fundamental right to free speech, to debate and disagree, to protest peacefully and make our voices heard. i understand, that is america, but there is no place on any campus in america, anyplace in america for anti-semitism or hate speech or threats of violence of any kind. whether against jews or anyone else, attacks, destroying property, it is not peaceful protests, it is against the law. we are not a lawless country. we are a civil society. we uphold the rule of law, and no one should have to hide or be just to be themselves.

>> amen, and too many stories, we have too many stories of too many jewish students, who have been afraid to walk across their own campuses and go to classes to parents of call them because it wasn't safe to walk across those campuses. the president's words, so great to see speaker, mike johnson. let's bring in the ceo of the antidefamation league, jonathan. jonathan i will bring you part of the wall street journal editorial. first though, before i got there, back page, evan, it has been 403 days now, since vladimir putin evan, and holding him for committing absolutely no crime at all. maybe marjorie taylor green might want to think about that before she tries to do vladimir putin's bidding again, as well

as the republicans on the back bench, they keep trying to do that, but i want to reach you part of this editorial for the wall street journal. the president was right recognize the quote, ferocious surge of aunties is semitism in america and around the world. this condemnation on campus is important. violent attacks, destroying property is not peaceful protests. he added it is against the law. he is right and she should name names national students for justice in palestine, as jp, whose campus chapters led the encampments, called october 7th quote, a historic win for the palestinian resistance. that is the worst slaughter of jews since the holocaust that they were calling a historic win. columbia's as jp called it quote, full solidarity with the palestinian resistance on

october 9th, praising the quote, historic attack. despite the odds. you know, jonathan, i'm so glad the wall street journal editorial page brought that up, because it is something i was just -- i just keep thinking about these debates about these protests going on. these groups that were running these protests? they claimed they are running it because of the people of gaza. no, they were praising the slaughter of jews, they were praising the of jews. they were praising women being torn from their homes, daughters being raped repeatedly, raped to death, and paraded around like animals in gaza, while people cheered. they were calling that-- i have got to keep going. they-- little babies being shot in this their cribs and their bassinets. these groups that ran the college protests, calling that a historic win for the palestinian people, they were

calling children being forced to watch their parents being shot point blank range and children and parents being forced, watching their own children being slaughtered before their eyes. these group that organized and around the college campuses, the columbia faculty members saluted, they were calling that a historic win. right after the slaughter. so, they can say it was about bombing in gaza. no, it was about well, exactly what they say it is about right? when people say who they are do you believe them? it was about genocide against the jews. from the river to the sea, wiping israel off the face of the earth. >> yeah. look, students for justice in palestine, joe. is about the farthest thing you can imagine from the greensboro four, from the protesters of the 60s, as you said, this is a

group of people who applaud slaughter, and i should say at adw we track extremist organizations, and on october 8, when we were trying to figure out what had happened on the morning of 10 seven, we are trying to figure out who was alive and who was dead, as jp released organizing toolkits and discussion guides, and action plans on october the eighth. long before the idf went into rafah, and long before the idf went into gaza. and it is because they want to globalize onto father. what they want is the mass murder of juice everywhere. and we come back to the president's speech, right? what he did yesterday, in this moment of unprecedented anti- semitism, was given an unprecedented statement of solidarity and support.

i have never heard a president give a speech like this before and i have worked in the west wing. i have worked in a couple of lighthouses. i know what it takes to put something like this together. he was clear, he was crisp, and you drew that line, as he said, from the shower to hamas, because i am here in philadelphia today, joe, i was at penn last night sitting with students and faculty members at the university of pennsylvania, as i have done at harvard and usc command columbia and other places and these students, they are desperate, they are exhausted, and they are angry because they don't feel protected and supported. president biden said i see you, i have an ironclad column commitment, and i think they the country needed to hear that yesterday. >> really, when i talked about how important it is for president, when people have just

been through a hurricane their entire lives have been wiped out, the president being there and i have seen it firsthand, bill clinton wasn't particularly popular in my district, but when he after hurricanes management something to those people. the president of the united dates is here and those kids-- and i call them kids, because i have got kids in college and when i do it i hope all people understand it is a term of endearment and my heart hurts for them. because i know, i know they are young, and it is just horrible, they have been chased across campuses, their parents a call them home. i know, specifically of so many incidences on certain days, where they hid in their dorm rooms and were afraid to go to class. of course, columbia, of course, had had remote classes at the end, because they couldn't protect the jewish events.

up next, actors, ethan hawke and laura lindy are here to talk about their new movie, wildcat, based on the short stories of flattery o'connor. deep down, i knew something was wrong. since my fatigue and light-headedness would come and go, i figured it wasn't a big deal. then i saw my doctor and found out i have afib, and that means there's about a 5 times greater risk of stroke. symptoms like irregular heartbeat, heart racing, chest pain, shortness of breath, fatigue, or light- headedness can come and go.

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her uncle's unhappy. you still got a land line in your house. i'm sensing an underlying issue. it's t-mobile. it started when we tried to get him under a new plan. but they they unexpectedly unraveled their “price lock” guarantee. which has made him, a bit... unruly. you called yourself the “un-carrier”. you sing about “price lock” on those commercials. “the price lock, the price lock...” so, if you could change the price, change the name! it's not a lock, i know a lock. so how can we undo the damage? we could all unsubscribe and switch to xfinity. their connection is unreal. and we could all un-experience this whole session. okay, that's uncalled for. dear god, i want to write a novel, a good novel. >> sometimes i feel like you are trying to stick pins in your readers. i don't think you need to make them suffer in order to introduce them to the unusual way your mind works.

>> you have been writing any cute stories lately? >> i read that last one you sent your mama, and left kind of a bad taste in my mouth. >> you might want to consider being a little more friendly. >> i try to turn the other cheek, but my tongue is always in it. i need to be working. >> nowadays, doctors don't let young people die. >> dear god, please, i can never seem to escape myself, strangely, i am never more myself than when i write. >> that is a look at the new movie, wildcat, which follows the life and career of midcentury writer, flannery o'connor, o'connor was forced to move back to her mother's farm in georgia, where she lived until she died at the age of 39. but as her health deteriorated, o'connor's southern gothic style of writing florist, when

a "new york times" reviewer once described her work this way quote, she writes with blazing steel about the most appalling floors. director and cowriter, ethan hawke, you may have recognized, the costar of the film, laura lynn, place o'connor's mother, gina, and several other characters. gratis you both. let's start, ethan, for people who may know the name, flannery o'connor, but may not know about her, why her story captured your interest as a writer and director? >> how proud i am to see her picture on national television. because she had a ferocious mind, and she was an incredibly devout woman in her spiritual discipline throughout her life led her to some powerful insights. she is a young person, 24, she was diagnosed with lupus, which killed her father very quickly. so she felt pretty certain that

she was going to die, from a very young age. and that intersection was such a talented young woman to produce some blistering, amazing art. and i thought it would be fun to make a movie. >> advisor legacy so powerful? why does she resonate today? to you to the point where you said this is a story that needs to be told in 2024? >> there's nobody else exactly like her. she didn't write about heroes, it is hard to find a good person in her stories. her stories are upsetting. you often don't think you like them when you read them, but then you want to read them again. and she talks about hard truths. and i think that is why it has lasted. >> so, laura, your character, regina, and many others who play, which we can explain when you turn up the stories again. why was she so significant to the story story of flattery o'connor at the connection you made with the character? >> i think regina sort of helps , sort of define how isolated and unique flannery is. they

sort of set the context of, here is a-- two catholics in the south, which was not usual, so they are sort of isolated, because of that, regina ran a dairy farm on her own, because she was widowed, women do not do that. she then sent her child-- this is the biggest taboo that she did, she said her child to yankee land. she sent her north, to be educated. that is another thing that did not happen. so you have these two women one here is more conventional than the other, but there living very unusual lives. >> that is all the time we have for the saturday. we will back here tomorrow morning at 6:00 a.m. eastern. up next, it is the weekend, enjoy the rest of your saturday. >>